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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've been wanting a 500 Quadracer since I sat on a new one years ago.
I'm finally getting closer to buying one(too many other things going on).
I know where there's a good cheap one in pieces, with many new parts.
I've also been considering good runners.
But, I haven't quite made up my mind which direction I want to go in.
I have seriously considered a gsxr1000 engine in it(I work on a lot of sportbikes).
I still need to take measurements to see how well it'll fit in the frame(I know there will be cutting and welding involved).
1k engines fit well in Yamaha Raptors, but their frames appear to be taller.
If anyone has personally done this, any details are appreciated.

My other question is; has anyone put fuel injection on a 2-stroke?
I was curious if a late model atv f.i set up could be modded to work on a 500? Possibly from a Yamaha 700 Raptor?
If burnt pre-mix fuel/oil would cause oxygen sensor issues?
If fuel timing could be adjusted enough(with say, a Power Commander)to work on a 2-stroke?
Dyno time would be a must.
It would be nice not to change jetting throughout the year for temperature change, and for a likely smoother running engine with slightly better power.

Just curious if anyone has any information on either.
Thanks.
 

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I think just about every MFG has done a FI two stroke. None ran any smoother or made more power. They did meet EPA requirements and you didn't have to jet, thats about all you gain. Most had a ton of issues and dropped FI. The only one still sticking with it is BRP.

You cant FI a two stroke like a 4 stroke. You really need more live input. With the system your looking to mount, the computer runs a base map (from many dyno runs). As TP, O2 input change the injector pulse with changes. On a two stroke the O2 is after the event and to far down stream. To do it right, you need mass air, pipe temp input from 3 spots, header, mid and cone. As pipe temp changes, power shifts rapidly. So a TP, mass air and pipe temps would shift injector pulse with before O2 would even see what happen. You would use the O2 to self adjust the long term and short term trim of the base map in the ECU. Thats a lot of work and more of a car FI then ATV.

In the end you add about 20~30lbs to the bike. Lots of $$ in parts and dyno time and the only real gain was no jetting change.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I thought adding fuel injection would likely be more time and money than it was worth.
I appreciate the details.

I'm still leaning towards the gsxr1k in it though.
I can get a good salvage engine(or whole bike)for the cost of well done 500, parts and machining.
Thanks for your time.
 

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I'd lean to installing a turbo on the 500 or fab and install a F7 motor out of a arctic cat. Both would make very good hp and still light
 

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I think just about every MFG has done a FI two stroke. None ran any smoother or made more power. They did meet EPA requirements and you didn't have to jet, thats about all you gain. Most had a ton of issues and dropped FI. The only one still sticking with it is BRP.

You cant FI a two stroke like a 4 stroke. You really need more live input. With the system your looking to mount, the computer runs a base map (from many dyno runs). As TP, O2 input change the injector pulse with changes. On a two stroke the O2 is after the event and to far down stream. To do it right, you need mass air, pipe temp input from 3 spots, header, mid and cone. As pipe temp changes, power shifts rapidly. So a TP, mass air and pipe temps would shift injector pulse with before O2 would even see what happen. You would use the O2 to self adjust the long term and short term trim of the base map in the ECU. Thats a lot of work and more of a car FI then ATV.

In the end you add about 20~30lbs to the bike. Lots of $$ in parts and dyno time and the only real gain was no jetting change.
Incorrect about many things here.

You can put EFI on a 2-stroke and gain lots of things. A few have done it on banshees and all ran smoother.
You don't need o2 sensors to run EFI. You don't need a MAF sensor. You don't need EGT sensors either.


Read these threads, both put EFI on a banshee.

http://bansheehq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164855
http://bansheehq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=139722
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'd lean to installing a turbo on the 500 or fab and install a F7 motor out of a arctic cat. Both would make very good hp and still light
I've never heard of putting a turbo on a 500. Who makes those?
I'm also unfamiliar with Artic Cats(what's an F7?), other than they have Suzuki 4 stroke engines. I've ridden a couple of their 4x4's and a friend of mine has a 300cc 4x4 he bought new over 10 years ago. They seem to be decent machines.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

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You most likely could take the EFI system off a 450 or raptor and retrofit it to a zilla.
You will just need make sure to get the correct size injector.
You wont need the stock ECU unit. Instead buy this adapter harness http://www.pe-ltd.com/joomla/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=10&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=59
and buy their ECU http://www.pe-ltd.com/joomla/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=87&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=58

It isn't a cheap ECU, but it is 100% tunable and it plug n play. Shouldn't need to do much wiring work except cutting and lengthening the wires.

Not sure if the stock zilla flywheel will work with the ECU though, might need to modify the flywheel to add a trigger wheel.
The stock zilla stator will need to be modded to give out more wattage and DC.

The raptor fuel pump (in tank). You could use the LTR450 EFI system. (PE has a harness for that too). The LTR has an inline fuel pump.
Going to EFI might had around 10lbs. Most of it being the battery and fuel pump. The TB should weigh around the same as a carb, the other sensors don't weigh much, maybe a couple pounds total. If you have lots of money, you could buy a lightweight battery that weighs around a pound and you wont be adding much weight at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You most likely could take the EFI system off a 450 or raptor and retrofit it to a zilla.
You will just need make sure to get the correct size injector.
You wont need the stock ECU unit. Instead buy this adapter harness http://www.pe-ltd.com/joomla/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=10&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=59
and buy their ECU http://www.pe-ltd.com/joomla/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=87&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=58

It isn't a cheap ECU, but it is 100% tunable and it plug n play. Shouldn't need to do much wiring work except cutting and lengthening the wires.

Not sure if the stock zilla flywheel will work with the ECU though, might need to modify the flywheel to add a trigger wheel.
The stock zilla stator will need to be modded to give out more wattage and DC.

The raptor fuel pump (in tank). You could use the LTR450 EFI system. (PE has a harness for that too). The LTR has an inline fuel pump.
Going to EFI might had around 10lbs. Most of it being the battery and fuel pump. The TB should weigh around the same as a carb, the other sensors don't weigh much, maybe a couple pounds total. If you have lots of money, you could buy a lightweight battery that weighs around a pound and you wont be adding much weight at all.
This is what I was looking for, great information!
I'll do some reading on all of it and weigh my options. Cost vs reliability and hp.
I really like 2-strokes and have had many over the years, but never a 500. From everything I read they can be temperamental, and I like to jet carbs where they run decent in most weather. I don't want to change them for a 20 degree difference, or kick it excessively.
If I'm going to spend the money to rebuild a 500 the right way, and fix all it's quirks, I'de like to add f.I.
I'm also still leaning towards a gsxr1k engine, as it won't cost any more(maybe less, 500 parts are expensive!), and all it'll be is a weld/fab install job...and over 3 times the hp!
I'm still curious about adding f.i though, thanks a lot for the info!
 

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This is what I was looking for, great information!
I'll do some reading on all of it and weigh my options. Cost vs reliability and hp.
I really like 2-strokes and have had many over the years, but never a 500. From everything I read they can be temperamental, and I like to jet carbs where they run decent in most weather. I don't want to change them for a 20 degree difference, or kick it excessively.
If I'm going to spend the money to rebuild a 500 the right way, and fix all it's quirks, I'de like to add f.I.
I'm also still leaning towards a gsxr1k engine, as it won't cost any more(maybe less, 500 parts are expensive!), and all it'll be is a weld/fab install job...and over 3 times the hp!
I'm still curious about adding f.i though, thanks a lot for the info!
Those sport bike swaps usually fail most times. They engine is so much heavier than the 2-stroke.

As far as EFI vs carb.
Cost of EFI isn't cheap. Might be looking at $1000 if you do a lot of work compared to around $2K for a easier close to plug n play setup.
Reliability. EFI has more shit that can go wrong, lot more sensors and parts. Carb is as simple for the most part.
As far as retuning/rejetting, you won't have to retune your EFI for different temps/elevation. With some EFI setups, they have autotune but these require an O2 sensor. I know the PE ecu has autotune feature. You can put an O2 sensor in your pipe, for initial tuning and setup then remove it again and plug the hole. If you ever change your setup like bigger TB or different pipe, you can use the autotune feature and hook the O2 back up and not have to do any tuning yourself.

As for HP. This is debatable. My opinion is you can make more power with EFI as you can run a bigger TB than carb. Reason you can run a bigger TB is because you are not relying on the air flow to pull the fuel. You should see a better power curve with more low end power. I know of V8 EFI kit, many companies are saying they gained huge power with EFI.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/efi/pf2-chevy.shtml
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Gsxr engine swap won't be a fail, the frame will be reinforced to handle it.
I know they do fit well in Raptors. I'm trying to find out now how well they'll fit in a 500(as I want to keep the factory look and positioning of the tank and fenders).
There is a 500 on youtube with a zx14 in it, but no up close pics. The zx14 engine is also taller and wider than a 1k.
I'm aslo looking at running the header tubes as 4 individuals under the engine, and waiting to the swing arm to turn them up and join them 4 to 1. Putting a skidplate under the header tubes as well.
It'll be a tight fit, but it'll save a lot of clearance as opposed to running the whole 4 to 1 exhaust under the frame.
Different shocks will handle the extra weight. 160+ wheel hp will make the weight un-noticeable. I'm guessing less than 100 lbs.
The center of gravity will also be low.
My Dad's a mechanical engineer and a great welder, he always helps bring my ideas to life.

I think the efi is really cool, and I would like to try it on a 500. However, I just don't think I want to spent that much money now. Considering I can put in a gsxr1k engine for less money and less headache. It'll already be tuned, it'll just be a weld/fab job.
I am going to keep reading on the f.i though.
 

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F.I. ...yea but....you are comparing a 4-stroker to a 2-stroker !
2 different animals ! and then you are comparing a v-8 engine to a single 2-stroke engine.
2 stroke engines emit oil out of the exhaust (gas and oil mix) causing the O2 sensor to foul out, giving you an inaccurate reading.
The 2 stroke has so many factors that can cause the tuning to be a tough job...(more or less a fly by the hip tune).
Sure they have them (F.I.) in newer 2 stroke sleds.. but, they are a way more better designed engine (advanced computer controlled exhaust power valve) than the older "zilla" or other 2 stroke engines.
F.I. systems on older quads, have been done but...In my opinion, a lot of more of a headache than a better idle and not that if no performance gain!
All for a nice hefty $1,000 or better.
If you have the computer saavy knowledge and are willing to shell out your income tax return to invest in this system and wanna impress your friends, or new found girlfriend...(who prob. doesn't give a ****). Give us a heads up of how you make out.

I'm not one to knock someone down on an idea that they wanna try but, price v.s. return on the outcome....I don't think it's worth it.
 

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Where did I compare a 2stroke to a 4 stroke?
I simply said you can take the EFI system from a 4-stroke and use that blank ECU and it will work if you know what you are doing.
I didn't compare V8 to 2stroke. I compared a V8 carb engine to the same engine with EFI. It showed a power increase.
You also don't need to run the O2 sensor 24/7 like I already said. You can use it to do tuning, then remove it.

I also gave links to a couple people that put them on the 70s engine in the banshee.

Here is another link where a guy put a banshee motor in a bike, added EFI then added a turbo.
http://bansheehq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174915
 

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I know of V8 EFI kit, many companies are saying they gained huge power with EFI.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...f2-chevy.shtml



Your Quote on the previous.

YOU NEED TO STOP BEING A DICK ! on this site as your previous posts!
We are here to help not put you down!
Isn't that what you are here for?
 

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I know of V8 EFI kit, many companies are saying they gained huge power with EFI.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/...f2-chevy.shtml



Your Quote on the previous.

YOU NEED TO STOP BEING A DICK ! on this site as your previous posts!
We are here to help not put you down!
Isn't that what you are here for?
Ummm how is that comparing a v8 to a 2stroke? Again, it is comparing a v8 efi to v8 carb.

Also how am I being a dick? Is being a dick making sure you actual know your facts straight? Or is being a dick giving actual facts instead of just hearsay.
 

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Incorrect about many things here.

You can put EFI on a 2-stroke and gain lots of things. A few have done it on banshees and all ran smoother.
You don't need o2 sensors to run EFI. You don't need a MAF sensor. You don't need EGT sensors either.


Read these threads, both put EFI on a banshee.

http://bansheehq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164855
http://bansheehq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=139722
I said ALL MFG HAVE DONE FI two strokes. Only ONE (BRP) has stuck with it.
I can ride around with a can of carb cleaner pluged into my intake and call it "High Pressure Injection", but that doesn't make it right.
Until you post dyno runs before and after (of a two stroke), you really didn't disprove what I said.
The fact that you listed what you think was not needed tells me all I need to know. Your running your ECU in open loop off TP. Thats really a bad idea. How many dyno sweeps does it take to set a correct A/F setting at all RPM range and loads? What dyno did you use to set it? Your looking at a $150000 eddy currant dyno.
 

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I said ALL MFG HAVE DONE FI two strokes. Only ONE (BRP) has stuck with it.
I can ride around with a can of carb cleaner pluged into my intake and call it "High Pressure Injection", but that doesn't make it right.
Until you post dyno runs before and after (of a two stroke), you really didn't disprove what I said.
The fact that you listed what you think was not needed tells me all I need to know. Your running your ECU in open loop off TP. Thats really a bad idea. How many dyno sweeps does it take to set a correct A/F setting at all RPM range and loads? What dyno did you use to set it? Your looking at a $150000 eddy currant dyno.
It takes zero dyno pulls. Like I said, you can run the O2 sensor at first then take it off once you have initial tuning done.
Also, I did disprove mot shit you said.
You don't need to run o2 sensors, been proven already.
You don't need to run EGT, been proven already.
You don't need to run MAF, been proven already.


Also incorrect about BRP being the only one with EFI 2-stroke.
Arctic Cat has many 2-stroke EFI sleds.
Polaris are 2-stroke EFI sleds.
Only major company in sleds that doesn't have a 2-stroke EFI is Yamaha. And pretty sure they don't even make a 2-stroke sled at all.


And $150K for a dyno, are you kidding? An ATV eddy current dyno is $30K new.
 

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I'm sorry for offending you but...obviously "you know it all" and it seems that someone writes a thread about a question, you seem to chime in with your negative posts being a KNOW IT ALL !

Why don't you start a new thread on the site..." I KNOW IT ALL-- ASK ME!

As for your comments and opinions, start a new post in which someone probably won't respond to because of your abrasiveness.

Obviously, you're new to this site and it doesn't work that way here!

I've seen you bash John Tice, whom has brought a wealth of knowledge in the form of cylinder replacements and other tips and tricks for us to learn.

I myself and probably more of the members on this site would think that you should move onto another website and give them your opinion.

24 Posts...Find somewhere else to bring your pillow and blanket !

You aren't welcome here !
 

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I'm sorry for offending you but...obviously "you know it all" and it seems that someone writes a thread about a question, you seem to chime in with your negative posts being a KNOW IT ALL !

Why don't you start a new thread on the site..." I KNOW IT ALL-- ASK ME!

As for your comments and opinions, start a new post in which someone probably won't respond to because of your abrasiveness.

Obviously, you're new to this site and it doesn't work that way here!

I've seen you bash John Tice, whom has brought a wealth of knowledge in the form of cylinder replacements and other tips and tricks for us to learn.

I myself and probably more of the members on this site would think that you should move onto another website and give them your opinion.

24 Posts...Find somewhere else to bring your pillow and blanket !

You aren't welcome here !
HAHA my negative post? You mean where I am giving the OP actual facts and info instead of saying don't do it, it doesn't work.

Where did I bash John? I asked him a simple question how taking static compression and dividing it by 14.7 gives compression ratio. I then gave facts on how to actually find UCCR and CCR. He then said I was being uncivilized. Not sure how asking a questions then giving correct mathatical formulas is being uncivilized.
Oh and fyi, 14.7 doesn't work, never has, never will. There is something he forgot, when you compression a gas, it heats up. When a gas heats up, it expands.
 

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Your funny fastkids. Your our own two stroke Kardashian. Didn't make anything yourself and haven't done it yourself. Post links to 2 "TWO" people that have (two out of the world wide web). Give a half azz list of 4 stroke parts needed (why no factory 2 stroke FI parts list?). Oh and just guess on the injector size, whip up a flywheel and stator (easy and cheep). Run it around the yard for a few laps with a O2, unplug and go. Butt Dyno guaranty better.

Your better off asking the kid who assembles riding lawn mowers at Home Depot about FI. LOL
 
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