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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Billy & I have decided to start an on going thread called “How it’s Done”. This will be an informative and educational thread to show how things are done in the Machine Shop.

After being a member of this most wonderful site, I’ve noticed ads & recommendations to many other shops that do custom work. I’ve noticed that most of the time you are led to believe the other facilities manufacture their own products. Fact is, this is seldom true. The custom cylinders come from www.CPindinc.com, the sleeves come from either www.nwsleeve.com or www.lasleeve.com. This kind of work is seldom done by your local engine builder, it’s far beyond their capabilities.

This isn’t a competition on who knows the most or the best or any of that stuff. We hope that any of you will reply with comments, questions & criticism on anything which you see in the thread. Billy will do a monthly recap or something depending on how things go with our endeavors. I expect to do a weekly addition to the thread. Subjects will be random depending on the projects that come across my work bench.


Index

1. Measuring tools
2. Cylinder boring prep., Hone introduction
3. Hones cont. Sleeve preparation & comments
4. How strong is that piston, Sleeves & cylinder etching
5. Boring & Sleeving A Mercury V-6
6. Boring & Honing, 2-stroke ideas, That mighty old Dale Herbrandson Reed Valve. DH Reed valves started everything in the
reed valve business.
7. Sleeving LT250R cylinder, Bore & hone a Yamaha twin.
8. Mandrels, coils, some handy information.
9. Stainless steel head studs, Foundry patterns for new cylinder liners.
10. Replace main bearing support bushings.
12. CR500 compression releases + or -
15. CR500 Liner replacement
16.-18. General discusion
19. Your Sleeve shrink fit, Sleeve foundry patterns.

37. Check your squish/deck height
40. Main bearing inserts the CNC way, How to figure your Squish Band.
41. Sleeving LT250R, Some coil inserts, Torque plates.
42. Sleeving 350 Yamaha, Replacing stripped exhaust threads.
43. Montessa Reed valve, Old time water coolers.

48. KX500 Sleeve instalation
51. Compression calculations
51. Sleeve Weber
54. Sleeve 650 Triumph twin



40 years & still moving along.

New Cylinder boring bar stand.

My background is a lifetime in the Machine Shop. I’m now 65 and started boring cylinders some 45 years ago. As you all have probably noticed from some of my comments, I also have a lot to learn. We all must humble ourselves and learn something new each day. Please chime in when you have some good ideas to share with the readership. Most of your replies to my stumbling comments have been polite and constructive. Please keep a positive attitude with your replies and it should all be worth our efforts.

Since I’ve become a member of E2S, I’m starting to see a lot of the JUNK work which others have paid a lot of money, only to end up in disappointment. I’d like to show and explain how things would be done from the “Old Dog” perspective. No Jetting, Timing, Pipes or Dyno tuning. That’s for the rest of you folks who know about that kind of stuff, Jump in.


Measuring tools: This is an example of some of the Junk which floats around and the tools used to help avoid some of the problems.



A dial or digital caliper is an economical and handy measuring tool. When some close measurements are required, you need to step up to a micrometer and dial gauges.






A 250cc cylinder converted into a maximum Big Bore engine. The bore is so large that there is no Head Gasket surface left. Common sense would tell us that this isn’t a good idea.




Sometimes a sleeve needs to be mounted on a Mandrel in order to get accurate measurements for calculating the Squeeze fit.



The Dial Bore Gauge is the work horse in the bore measuring department. A little spendy, but well worth the investment. When you farm out your cylinder machine work, you can check up on what your engine guy is really doing.




Measurements on the lathe. Over time, you’ll get a Feel for your tools.
A minimal invest in precision measuring tools is a fine addition to your tool chest.

We're new at this, Fire away with your questions.

“Old Dog” www.smallenginemachineworks.com
JT
I've worked on the layout of this thread all Morning. I GIVE UP.
 

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This is awesome and while many of us are excitedly in line for this, many others on this site are still at the Suck Squeeze Bang Blow stage of the game. What do we have in line for these folks to get them up to the speed of this thread?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
We can go any place we wish in the Machine Shop area. As time goes by questions will come up that will generate more interest.

Here are larger pictures.

Measuring tools: This is an example of some of the Junk which floats around and the tools used to help avoid some of the problems.


40 years & still moving along.




A dial or digital caliper is an economical and handy measuring tool. When some close measurements are required, you need to step up to a micrometer and dial gauges.


Sometimes a sleeve needs to be mounted on a Mandrel in order to get accurate measurements for calculating the Squeeze fit.


The Dial Bore Gauge is the work horse in the bore measuring department. A little spendy, but well worth the investment. When you farm out your cylinder machine work, you can check up on what your engine guy is really doing.



A 250cc cylinder converted into a maximum Big Bore engine. The bore is so large that there is no Head Gasket surface left. Common sense would tell us that this isn’t a good idea.


Dial Gauge for longitudinal carriage adjustment.


Measurements on the lathe. Over time, you’ll get a Feel for your tools.
A minimal investment in precision measuring tools is a fine addition to your tool chest.
We're new at this, Fire away with your questions.

“Old Dog” www.smallenginemachineworks.com
JT
 

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I think this thread is an excellent idea and will be able to help alot of people. Maybe a few articles about how to use and calibrate a micrometer, the correct way to measure the bore on a cylinder and how to measure the stroke of a crankshaft would be a good place to start? I look forward to learning some things from this thread :thumbsup:
 

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Thanks man! This is some good reading, and I'm thinking about going into machining/welding. I'm going to Mesa Community College next semester to start an associates degree program for welding and I'm ready to learn how to fix my own stuff, build some cool stuff, and have fun doin it!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Banshee Boy: Starting with welding classes will be the most gratifying. You can do more for yourself and earn some extra bux with little investments. TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) & MIG (Metal arc Inert Gas) also some Torch work should be in the curriculum. Many of the E2S members contribute regularly with their projects. Any good welder can always find employment. You’re getting a good start as soon as you start to accumulate a quality tool assortment which will last a lifetime.
As far as machine work goes, it takes generations to accumulate the equipment and knowledge. We all started somewhere. When I started SEMW, I did it in my father’s back room of his hardware manufacturing business. I’m hoping that my grandson might continue with what we have started. Any of you folks can do the same. Only in America as they say. In my earlier years I would stay at the shop and bore cylinders till I just about dropped. Your business commitments will be hard on the marriage. (Keep your Finger Nails Clean).
I’m hoping to help give you folks a jump start with this column.
JT
 

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4stokesLazy2strokesCrazy!
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HAHA totaly agree on the dirty finger nails part no matter how trivial that sounds. My lady has complained about them. I def have a stiff haired brush in my shower.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Preparing your Cylinder for top end machine work
In last weeks comments, A person asked about measuring and calibrating techniques.
Some time ago, I was asked how much a sleeve job costs, We’ll talk about this. There can be many answers to both of these questions.
Consider the hourly rate. Since it’s easy to work with we’ll use $60.00 per hour, or $1.00 per minute. If a bore job takes 1/2 hour the charge might be $30.00. What drives us machinist’s crazy is the preparation for a bore job. Pulling the Studs & Locating grommets, Preparing a smooth & flat gasket surface for chucking in the boring stand.




Pulling the Studs can very easily take longer than the bore job. It’s easy to tell why the machinist can quote $120.00 or something higher to bore your cylinder.


This is a simple tool and a necessity when working with your cylinder. It’s a little hard to decipher, I call it a Torque bar. Just clamp the bar to the (cylinder base gasket area), in your vice instead of attempting to clamp the cylinder. I used a scrap peace of aluminum tubing. The torque bar will be full of holes after you drill it for a few cylinders.




Pulling a rusty grommet can be a tricky thing to do. I use a set of punch centers to fit in the grommet, then clamp and pull with a Vice Grip.
\
Next is pulling the Head Bolt studs.

I like a Cam Stud puller or Parrot Beak pliers.




When all the studs are pulled, they should probably be replaced with new ones.




The Top & Bottom gasket surfaces can be finished Flat with an Oil Stone & good sharp File.



Next Measuring & Calibrating
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Next Measuring & Calibrating
I usually use a Micrometer, Telescoping gauge & Dial bore Gauge. (Photo’s in Last Weeks’s comments)

The first step is to accurately measure the piston diameter.

Carefully measure up & Down the piston 90deg. To the wrist pin. Some of the older Blue
Box Wiseco pistons had a “Belly” about 1/2 way down. Always write down your
measurements for reference.

Use a telescoping gauge to get approximate measurements of the bore.

If your careful, the telescoping gauge is as accurate as the dial Bore gauge.

Set the Dial Bore Gauge to 0” for the piston diameter.





Next week we’ll work on honing techniques. I think that others will agree with me
that the final fitting is far more important than the boring machine operation.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Very cool JT! I like the tool you use to remove the head studs with. Do most machine shops pull the studs to bore a jug? My local machine shop only charges $30 a jug so they probably don't.
At least your learning how some of us do this kind of work. The best way to bore is with the cylinder upside down.
JT
 

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I am a machinist by trade here and I really like this thread. We can all take a step back and learn from the beginning again. I look forward to learning any new things I can!!
 

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Hey John, as a follow up to the tools post (very good BTW, thank you for that!) I think it might be advantageous to do a little write up on "blue printing" motors, and how having the tools available to measure all manners of the engine and make sure everything is in factory specification without manufacturing tolerances is something everyone should consider doing. Some of the things I've noticed over the years is if your big rod end is 2-3 thousandths out of spec in play from OEM specs and you end up decking your head, a loose rod even if it is ever so slightly could end up making your deck clearance waay too tight between the head and the piston.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hey John, as a follow up to the tools post (very good BTW, thank you for that!) I think it might be advantageous to do a little write up on "blue printing" motors, and how having the tools available to measure all manners of the engine and make sure everything is in factory specification without manufacturing tolerances is something everyone should consider doing. Some of the things I've noticed over the years is if your big rod end is 2-3 thousandths out of spec in play from OEM specs and you end up decking your head, a loose rod even if it is ever so slightly could end up making your deck clearance waay too tight between the head and the piston.
There will be room for input from others on this, especially someone with Dyno experience.
JT
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Cylinder Honing, Do’s & Don’ts
Now day’s with so many different piston manufacturers, skirt clearance is one of the most critical fits in your engine. Most of the pistons are forged and extremely strong. Much tighter skirt clearances & many more ports in the 2-Strokers makes the Hone Procedure even more important.



Ball Hone, Ammco & Lyle type hone, 3-Fingered brake cylinder hone
The Ball hone is good for final deburr and Plateau finishing. Ammco type hones do precision honing.
Ammco type hones are a good start until a shop steps up to a power machine. The 3-Finger brake cylinder hone has no place when working with 2-sroke cylinders.



Hand held Sunnen Hone
Best choice for doing Bench honing and Blind Bore work.



Brush Hones purchased from Wiseco. Best choice for Plateau Honing.
It was suggested from a friend to use this hone while running the drill in
A reverse direction.

Cylinders with Too many Ports: When your honing a 2-Stroker and the hone goes
“Clickity Clack, Clickity Clack” like a Rail Road Train, Your in for trouble with that
Precision skirt clearance fit. I’m sure most of you have had this happen. You either need
longer stones or more stones on the hone head.




Sunnen stones are 4” long and may not be enough for a cylinder with all of the ports.



The Double Stone head set up: This Double Stone head was designed to hone Splined
ID”S. It works wonderfully in 2-Strokers with all of the ports.



Hone stones usually need to be dressed “Sharpened” to maintain a smooth and
accurate cut. A supplied diamond dresser, file card or stiff wire brush all work well.
When the stones are sharp, they make a distinctive shearing sound when stroking.



A torque bar on the left side support multi cylinder blocks. It’s best to use a manual
Hone with your bench vice when sizing 3&4 cylinder blocks.





Continuous Dial Bore Gauge measurements are required to finish to the correct skirt
Clearance.



Power machines are available in floor type and bench top models. Most of their cost is in the
Tooling, not the machine.
Next week we may go into the Small Bore mandrels, 68mm and down.

A lot of the info in this weeks “How it’s Done” is more than most of you folks will ever need. For sure, you should at least know about the process of Cylinder Honing. You all have $ thousands invested in your equipment. Saving a few dollars on a cheap bore job shouldn’t be an option. You now know some questions that you can ask your mechanic. If your mechanic can learn from our thread then so the better. I’m a Machinist, not a tuner, If you have any questions or ideas, please join in. My love for the Sunnen hone goes back to the late 50’s when I started Kart racing.
Billy has a fantastic Web Site, but only as good as the members & readers. You folks are a step above the rest because you read this site.
JT
 

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could you please explain why the 3 finger hone is not good when honing a two stroke? i have used them several times on banshee cylinders with great success. thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
could you please explain why the 3 finger hone is not good when honing a two stroke? i have used them several times on banshee cylinders with great success. thanks.
StrokitTwice: Good question, that’s what the site is for. When I talk about no use on a 2-Stroke, I’m assuming that you are using the 3 fingered hone to put a cross hatch on your cylinder? Yes, if your putting a cross hatch on your cylinder, it will work. What you can’t do is precision hone to size. The fingers hang up in the bottom cut outs in the sleeve. Since the fingers are spring loaded, there is no size control. So, We both get a point on this one. If you do however go to a dealer for a bore job, & your mechanic is using a 3 finger hone to fit your piston, your looking for big trouble, and a bigger expense when the engine locks up. If Carlos is reading this thread, please Chime In?
Thanks for the question, we will all learn together.
JT
 
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